On Test - 28 May 03

[Licasia]

New changes on Test with regards to Group Experience.

Click here (http://eq.crgaming.com/viewarticle.asp?Article=5124) to read them.

[Licasia]

Experience System Change - Grouping

We've made some improvements to the way experience is rewarded in all of EverQuest. At its core, the idea is to positively reinforce grouping. There should never be any penalty to adding "that sixth person over there," whatever class they may be, into your group. That is exactly the type of behavior that should be rewarded.

In a massively multi-player game, any mechanic that penalizes those who group is one that we need to take a serious look at. While there are definite benefits to forming "well balanced" groups in terms of damage, tanking, healing, and support, there shouldn't be an active penalty to those who cannot find groups of "optimal" balance.

As it stands in EverQuest, groups gain a 2% to 20% experience bonus, which we refer to as the "group bonus", for having two to six members. In practice, however, this has never been much of a bonus, even in the case of a full group, given that the experience was already being divided six ways.

In the past, we had also attempted to reward people for adventuring in the more challenging Planes of Power zones by making those zones give a better rate of experience.

As of this update, groups now gain 20% to 80% "group bonus" experience for having two to five members.

Full, six-person, groups now see an additional bonus. Their experience is only divided five ways, yet they still gain the 80% "group bonus." For those who think in terms of pie charts, it amounts to a larger piece of a larger pie.

Accordingly, the bonus inherent to Planes of Power zones will be decreased slightly. However, as long as person is grouped with at least one other, they will see an improvement in experience gain over the old system. The one down side to the new system is that there will be a slight decrease in experience for those who do not group, and only for those who do so in Planes of Power zones.

We realize that we are, essentially, "manufacturing" a new type of experience after a kill. As players, we also understand it is the people who spend time in full groups who have to deal with the most interruptions and setup time caused by organizing the extra people. It simply makes sense to reward that extra time, especially if it means bringing more people together. After all, that's the whole point.

We look forward to seeing how these changes play out on Test Server.

Experience System Change - Level 60+

In addition to the above changes, we have increased the range of NPC levels that give a person experience after they reach level 60. The "blue to 65" range has been increased as far as level 50, with the "light blue" range extending to level 45. The best benefits, however, are still for fighting things around and above your level.

The world of EverQuest, at this point in its history, is truly immense and full of the best and most interesting content and visuals out there. Ideally, when a person logs on they should have a wide array of places in which to adventure. The addition of new content shouldn't entirely obsolete what already exists. Hopefully these changes will once again make that the case.

[Ramsus]

Awesome changes.

Reports are, 6 person groups on test are getting amost doublt the exp they did before.

[Kalthanan]

Holy crap.

So, basically, soloers are nerfed :)

I don't mind, even though I solo sometimes in PoV.

I think this will be a good change.

[Ramsus]

Solo'ers are reporting a nerf in PoP.

basically, for a group to make the same amount of exp as a solo'r they has to kill 4+ mobs in the same amount of time.

Now, its down to 2.something.

Its just an awesome change. And i feel bad for the folks who were getting 5% aa per kill and now have to deal with 3-4%. Really. I do.

[Kalthanan]

Re: Soloing in PoV

Ding 63

[FeriosNoncedo]

F U necros. Again.

[Ramsus]

How is nerfing the Zone experience Modifier in pop a necro nerf?

And only in PoP this is happening so it must be a necro nerf.

oh.. you mean cause only necros solo in pop?

Its aimed at getting people to group. The problem is, why would an enchanter, necro, druid, wiz or anyone else ever want to group previously if they could solo? They had no reason to. Now, grouping becomes a much more viable option for them. And if they want to solo, they still can. An option many of wish we had.

Oh, but they dont get as much exp in POP now? Well, they did say they arent doing that to other zones and they are raising the mobs con status.

The truth of the matter is.. when 75% of the games population are sitting in the planes, theres is something wrong. Obviously the ZEm in POP was way out of whack. We knew that. It was obvious.

When the new expansion is released this fall, if pop was still giving the mad exp, who would go there? they obviously couldn;t make a zone give MORE exp than pop is giving.. so they had to lower the exp so they can raise it in the Lost Dungeons Of Norrath.

[FeriosNoncedo]

Instead of going down a laundry list, I'll just link (http://necro.eqclasses.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=18520) some info. Might have to join to view, im not sure. Anyway, to answer your question, No, it doesnt just effect necros. However, the essence of necro is soloing. It's not a soloing class, it's a soloer. That's ok though. If i get the urge to solo, I'll be sure to group with that other soloing necro or druid in the zone and solo nearby and get the bonus..... I guess my problem with it is risk vs. reward. Why should a grouped necro get more experience for sending in his pet, throwing a couple dots on the mob, then going afk for a bio quick while the mob dies than the necro that goes and snares a yellow mob ( if it sticks..couple resists and you're fooked), dots it over and over while running around trying to not get agro from other nearby mobs, sends in pet hoping pet doesnt get agro or its dead, etc. If you can tell me why the first necro deserves more experience, I will be grateful.

[Kalthanan]

I don't understand why you're always so bitter, Ferlantra.

Necros and druids can solo and get experience faster than a group as it is.

You just need to relax and think about it. It'll make sense once you stop thinking of every change as a personal attack.

Perhaps some medication could help you.

[Janari]

You think he's bad now? Just wait till he see's what they done on Lucy to Darkness.

MUWHAHA

Jan

[Falax]

When greens kill necros I'll say they are nerfed. When a necro thinks killing a light blue is a triumph I'll say they are nerfed. As it is now necros can get 5 aa's soloing in the time other classes can get 1 aa grouping. This change is going to give the required grouping classes a much needed boost while dropping the soloers exp gain a small amount. How's that a nerf to necromancers?

[Licasia]

They have said from the very beginning that this is a group-centric game. So they make things better for people that group, so what? That will just encourage more people to group. If you would rather not group, and go out and do things by yourself, good on you. But don't get upset just because they make things better for the majority of the players in the game. I don't really see you losing all that much anyway, looks like a pretty small percentage.

[Janari]

I played Knoddy till I was so sick of soloing, that I almost wanted never to log in again. I enjoy grouping. There are times when finding one is a bit hard, but for the most part, soloing has left a bitter taste in my mouth.

I agree with Casi, Fal and K2. This is geared to getting more folks grouping, and the majority will see it as a possitive change. No one is stopping you from soloing. Have at it till your blue in your little Necro face for all I care. If you need me, look for the nearest Amichi group and give me a hollar.


Jan

[Ramsus]

Actually, now, Id be pissed if I was a necro. I dont think the exp thing is a necro nerf.

THIS is a necro nerf.

Check the update on lucy's http://lucy.fnord.net/newspells.html?source=Test&date=2003-05-29%2020:47:51

Dooming, Cascading, Devouring, and Embracing darkness have all had their % of snare reduced, the biggest nerf on Embracing and the least nerf on Dooming.

Dooming: http://lucy.fnord.net/spellhistory.html?id=452&source=Test
Changed Slot 2 from "Decrease Movement by 49% (L29) to 60% (L50)" to "Decrease Movement by 47% (L29) to 58% (L50)"

Cascading http://lucy.fnord.net/spellhistory.html?id=453&source=Test
Changed Slot 2 from "Decrease Movement by 60%" to "Decrease Movement by 59%"

Devouring http://lucy.fnord.net/spellhistory.html?id=1619&source=Test
Changed Slot 2 from "Decrease Movement by 69% (L59) to 75% (L65)" to "Decrease Movement by 60%"

Embracing http://lucy.fnord.net/spellhistory.html?id=3309&source=Test
Changed Slot 2 from "Decrease Movement by 73% (L63) to 75% (L65)" to "Decrease Movement by 61%

[FeriosNoncedo]

I'm not upset, maybe I'm just coming across wrong. If I were really upset everytime they messed with necros, I woulda hung it up by now. I don't solo very often anyhow. But when I do, if i do it in PoP after they change this exp, I and all other classes that can solo will get less experience for killing a yellow con mob by ourselves than we will in a group. A lot less. The risk vs reward to that makes no sense to me and if someone would explain to me why it makes sense I would honestly appreciate it. Maybe It'll help get the soloing classes some groups, but I forsee more groups doubling up on clerics, shamans, enchanters, etc as oppossed to snagging that druid or necro. What I'd personally like to see is some more undead content in tier 2 PoP zones( necro can 70% slow undead), make them non-soloable even. Make a necro more useful to a PoP group by being able to fill in for a class to some degree. So far, guild groups or groups where at least one guildie was a member of are the only groups I've been able to get in tier 2 PoP zones. I love fighting with guildies, but there arent always guildies around to pressure the group into inviting me, lol. And as for the snare thing, it's already the most resisted, longest casting, most mana consuming snare in the game, yeah its way unbalanced, it needed to be nerfed /flips off necros

[Kalthanan]

You're focusing on the wrong target.

Just because other people will get more XP now doesn't mean you should talk about nerfs.

Point: Everyone gets an XP nerf in PoP because they are reducing the *gigantic* XP bonus (145%) to something more reasonable.
No problem there; anyone with a brain expected it.

Point: Everyone gets an XP boost for grouping. Ok, cool, grouping gives people more XP, that's awesome. That means more free XP.

I don't see a problem. Where are we losing, beyond something that was broken to begin with?


Oh yeah, and soloing sucks. It's boring. I hate it.

[FeriosNoncedo]

I do too, it's just the dang principle. And oh yeah,

Originally posted by Rytan_EQ

Sorry about the confusion on this one guys, but we're not nerfing the darkness line.
The changes were aimed at fixing some inconsistencies with how some darkness spells overwrote other spells in the line. It didn't work like I wanted it to, so I changed it back this afternoon.

Again, sorry about the confusion guys.


who is rytan_eq that posted on necro boards? I dunno, but he has a verant interactive, san diego ip address.

[Ramsus]

very cool. Althought it didnt look like much of a change.. its was still a nerf .

[FeriosNoncedo]

"Point: Everyone gets an XP nerf in PoP because they are reducing the *gigantic* XP bonus (145%) to something more reasonable.
No problem there; anyone with a brain expected it."

I hear what you're saying kal, but I disagree with that "everyone" part. All classes that don't / can't solo will see a dramatic rise in experience in PoP. Warrior BoB over there won't be forced to group for experience, because he's forced to group due to class restrictions of the class he chose. He will enjoy the added xp oblivious to any nerf, as will his other melee friends, his cleric healer, and others.

So, i guess my point is that this effects NOBODY but soloers detrimentally. Other classes will enjoy the added experience, and the OPTION ( I dont solo much, but I enjoy options as they make me feel like I actually have an avenue open to me should I chose to go that route) of soloing for experience is null. Group or get crap experience. Soloing while waiting for a group = waste of mana. Sooner or later someone will say they see my point and I'll stop posting :P

[Falax]

Doubt it. You are crying nerf when there is no nerf. Again, why should you be able to solo for 5x the exp? When the majority of people MUST group it makes sense to even the flow out.

You posted earlier that people will now double up on clerics, shammies, and chanters. What are you smoking? I can count on 2 fingers the number of times in 3+ years that I have been in a exp group with another cleric, have never been in a group with 2 shammies, and one hand the times with 2 chanters. It just doesn't happen.

You still have an option to solo while lfg. Most of us have the option of sitting there, killing greens for tradeskills, tradeskills, playing an alt, or just logging. Go cry on the necro board, a few people who still feel they deserve 5-25 aa's an hour solo may agree with you still.

[FeriosNoncedo]

It's called risk vs reward, Falax. As for the option of soloing, 33% decrease in experience is hardly an option...and yes, other classes dont have that option, but they had the option to make a soloing class if that's what they wanted to do with their time. And as far as never seeing 2 clerics, 2 shammies, etc in a group ever, there was never an experience hike for being grouped like this before to my knowledge...not this high. And how is 33% less experience soloing not considered a nerf, lol. Futhermore, I've never received the aa's you speak of soloing.

[Falax]

Read the boards, that is the range for an average to ubah necro. A decrease in 33% is not a nerf to soloers, it is merely "balancing". It was out of whack and you know it. Yes I had the option to make a soloing class, I also have the option to play a regular game on my own. I like playing with other people. It is not right for one class to be able to get that much exp. Risk vs reward is understandable, but not one class that can solo the hardest zones as necros do.

Druids can solo also. Why did you swap classes? Because you read the necro boards and saw the exp they were getting. Plain and simple. Now a modifier is added to enhance grouping, the preferred method of EQ since inception, and you cry nerf. It just isn't so.

[FeriosNoncedo]

They needed to enhance group exp bonus. I'm not arguing that...that has been broken for way too long. Secondly, I rarely solo and did not switch from druid to necro due to experience. Druid charmed pets kick the crap outta necro pets, its faster experience, snared mobs stayed snared for longer than 1.5 minutes, you can quad kite pre-pop. I could get faster exp on my druid but I didnt enjoy playing one anymore. Futhermore, I've a) made numerous characters on test server and have spoken with many different classes there to get the information from the source b) have looked through 4 soloing classes websites and have yet to hear someone say " I love soloing and this exp change will be nice :) " Everyone with something nice to say about this starts off with " I hate soloing" or " Soling is boring, grouping is so much more fun c) It wasnt very long ago that they nerfed charm experience to make anyone that used charm for experience soloing ( mainly druids and chanters) get crap experience throughout norrath. It destroyed the usefulness of a lvl 65 necro undead charm as well. This new proposed change is just another way to kill the PoP soloers. d) I think soloing is boring and I dont do it often. But it'd be nice , seeings how 98.9% of all my spells are solo tools, to be able to get experience doing it if i had the itch to do it . So what, soloers are getting less experience , they were getting too much experience before you say. Prolly so. With the proposed patch a soloer will get less experience by himself than if he were grouped with a fd monk. A lot less. How is that balance?

Finally, making dark blue cons for lvl 61+ to kill in non pop zones, yippie, more hunting grounds. No. They are proposing to make the dark blue range extend down to lower level mobs than it does currently. If the mob isnt within 5 levels of you, the exp will be crap. Making a whatever level mob con dark blue instead of light blue won't raise your experience if the level of the mob itself isnt raised it'll just act as a placebo to keep you happy....oh lookie I got dark blues to kill. Not viable grouping nor soloing mobs so soloers will still be stuck in PoP if they want decent experience, so there goes that option.

Anyhows, I can see everyone's point(s) and understand what you are talking about. I've investigated the proposed changes, think sony has handled them all wrong and hope they don't go live as they stand now. Broken things could be fixed without the changes they currently propose in such a way it isnt making it more broke. That's my opinion, and unless someone has some numbers, hard facts, or anything besides speculation I will retain my opinion that necros, druids, chanters, and other PoP soloers, giving into account other recent changes that went live, are getting shafted.